Discussion:
BBC Secrets of Magic How were the unrevealed magic done
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Pritesh
2003-08-04 11:30:37 UTC
Permalink
In the Saturdays programme 'The secrets of Magic' they shows magic
tricks in the normal way after the tricks were revealed for the
unconventional ways but never revealed how they were done for the
normal ones. Could anyone guess how they were done ? I'm particularly
interested in how the magician made the woman's shoe vanish and
reappeared when the man dressed in bull fighters costume came out of
the train and took out her shoe from his bag and how the woman's ring
end up on the snake.
fLaMePr0oF
2003-08-04 15:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Hmmm... pretty arrogant answer... ;oP

I have to say the shoe one had me, the vanish was easy enough but the shoe
on the train, at a platform of her choice??? I wonder if there is a shoe
store in Waterloo Station...? As a magician I love it when I'm left saying,
"how on earth", and I suspect you're no different really =OD

fLaMePr0oF <><
obviously you are not a magician then .... ??!!!!
'twas all easy enough for magicians to understand.......
Zipp..
fLaMePr0oF
2003-08-04 16:18:17 UTC
Permalink
oh come on dude... see the bigger picture .. Nick Knowles went to
great pains to tell us that there were no camera tricks a few times
during the show....
I believe that ...
he also told us that they were revealing the truth about how all these
tricks were done .. (e.g. the precursor to the 'shoe on the train'
trick) .. do you really, really think a guy of John Lennahans prowess
with a deck of cards would have him resort to photomessaging ......and
how would you guarantee connection to the mobile in time for the train
I can assure you, reception is NOT a problem in the London area on most
networks. It's HEVILY covered by masts. Also it looked like a delay was
edited out, the train wasn't JUST arriving.
to arrive???
I don't believe that ... (although it is presented as a plausible method)
This is exactly how the card one was done, you can even see the stooge
pocketing the 10H in the video replay, it's not that JL 'stooped' to
anything, they just constructed a trick which could be revealed without
giving away any bonifide secrets, (like the P&T's card prediction where the
card was displayed on the giant billboard behind the subject in Times
Square, remember...?)
Nick Knowles also said that the person on whom the shoe gag was
performed was picked at random ... err.. from three,... who cut the
deck to take part in the trick?? the winner having *cut* to the bottom
of what was left of the deck i.e. she took the bottom card, an ace ...
trying just a little too hard here to be showing *randomness* methinks.
so the question is I suppose .. do you believe Nick knowles when he
said that woman who's shoe was vanished was a total stranger....
or a stooge ?
Well, I see it a bit differently, here's a *possible* method....

The woman was selected at random, but selected BEFORE the camera action...
As far as I know, there is a shoe store in Waterloo Station, along with a
whole load of other shops, say they picked her out in the shop when she
bought her shoes and decided to wear them there and then, and got an
identical pair (they match perfectly cuz they are both new and she will
never know the difference)... Then the high card is forced on her, (notice
how JH held tightly onto the deck when she tried to cut, then casualy said,
"Oh, OK, take the whole deck if you like".

He then led her to a position in the station where several platform numbers
were visible to her and did a psychological force of platform 12 based on
the numbers she could see looking down the platform - this would work well
if she could see up to platform 9 - her inclination would be to pick 12 as
it's psychologicaly linked to 9, (perhaps having a few or all other
platforms covered in case of a miss-hap, although this would cost a lot on
shoes!). Took her there, vanished the shoe and presto! (This could all
have been made easier if they aquired lots of pairs of an inexpensive shoe,
and had them placed on "Special Offer" in pride of place at the shoe store
entrance).

Although my explanation is not perfect, it shows, I hope, that there are
methods other than stooges for this effect and Nick Knowles COULD have been
telling the truth. (I hate it when background info on an effect is a lie,
and I doubt that JL would stoop to THIS!)

As for the card one, I would have just forced the card, (possibly using a
rough/smooth deck), disapeared the card with a devil's hank, and had the
forced card put on the train window... No need for a stooge in the station,
and no need for picture messaging phones =OP
Zipp.. << knows what he thinks!!
zippeedeedoodaa
2003-08-04 16:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by fLaMePr0oF
oh come on dude... see the bigger picture .. Nick Knowles went to
great pains to tell us that there were no camera tricks a few times
during the show....
I believe that ...
he also told us that they were revealing the truth about how all these
tricks were done .. (e.g. the precursor to the 'shoe on the train'
trick) .. do you really, really think a guy of John Lennahans prowess
with a deck of cards would have him resort to photomessaging ......and
how would you guarantee connection to the mobile in time for the train
I can assure you, reception is NOT a problem in the London area on most
networks. It's HEVILY covered by masts. Also it looked like a delay was
edited out, the train wasn't JUST arriving.
to arrive???
I don't believe that ... (although it is presented as a plausible method)
This is exactly how the card one was done, you can even see the stooge
pocketing the 10H in the video replay, it's not that JL 'stooped' to
anything, they just constructed a trick which could be revealed without
giving away any bonifide secrets, (like the P&T's card prediction where the
card was displayed on the giant billboard behind the subject in Times
Square, remember...?)
Nick Knowles also said that the person on whom the shoe gag was
performed was picked at random ... err.. from three,... who cut the
deck to take part in the trick?? the winner having *cut* to the bottom
of what was left of the deck i.e. she took the bottom card, an ace ...
trying just a little too hard here to be showing *randomness* methinks.
so the question is I suppose .. do you believe Nick knowles when he
said that woman who's shoe was vanished was a total stranger....
or a stooge ?
Well, I see it a bit differently, here's a *possible* method....
The woman was selected at random, but selected BEFORE the camera action...
As far as I know, there is a shoe store in Waterloo Station, along with a
whole load of other shops, say they picked her out in the shop when she
bought her shoes and decided to wear them there and then, and got an
identical pair (they match perfectly cuz they are both new and she will
never know the difference)... Then the high card is forced on her, (notice
how JH held tightly onto the deck when she tried to cut, then casualy said,
"Oh, OK, take the whole deck if you like".
He then led her to a position in the station where several platform numbers
were visible to her and did a psychological force of platform 12 based on
the numbers she could see looking down the platform - this would work well
if she could see up to platform 9 - her inclination would be to pick 12 as
it's psychologicaly linked to 9, (perhaps having a few or all other
platforms covered in case of a miss-hap, although this would cost a lot on
shoes!). Took her there, vanished the shoe and presto! (This could all
have been made easier if they aquired lots of pairs of an inexpensive shoe,
and had them placed on "Special Offer" in pride of place at the shoe store
entrance).
Although my explanation is not perfect, it shows, I hope, that there are
methods other than stooges for this effect and Nick Knowles COULD have been
telling the truth. (I hate it when background info on an effect is a lie,
and I doubt that JL would stoop to THIS!)
As for the card one, I would have just forced the card, (possibly using a
rough/smooth deck), disapeared the card with a devil's hank, and had the
forced card put on the train window... No need for a stooge in the station,
and no need for picture messaging phones =OP
Zipp.. << knows what he thinks!!
hey dude, you think what you like ...

what you 'present' as possible ... probably is.. but the part that
really lets your 'possible' down is the psychological force part ...

really dude ?? .... mmhh ..it's not doing it for me I am afraid ..

and notice, JL didn't state that there were no ties to the partaker
(stranger or stooge .. you decide) .. Nick Knowles did .....

finally, also.. if he wasn't above using a stooge in the 'card on
train', why be above it with 'shoe on train' ?
in fact wouldn't that just be sublime ???
I mean ..well... it would certainly fool a few 'competent magicians'
wouldn't it? well..?? wouldn't it? ????

Zipp..
zippeedeedoodaa
2003-08-04 17:08:18 UTC
Permalink
fLaMePr0oF wrote:
whereas people
like you might graduate from packet tricks to truly great technique, but
you're nothing without the magical thinkers like us ;o)
Zipp wrote ..
har ! righty-ho

Zipp..
Post by zippeedeedoodaa
hey dude, you think what you like ...
what you 'present' as possible ... probably is.. but the part that
really lets your 'possible' down is the psychological force part ...
As I said, every platform could have been covered if the shoes were provided
by the team.
Post by zippeedeedoodaa
really dude ?? .... mmhh ..it's not doing it for me I am afraid ..
and notice, JL didn't state that there were no ties to the partaker
(stranger or stooge .. you decide) .. Nick Knowles did .....
Semantics - I'm sure JL gave the description of his effect to the producers,
the 'lie' would have to originate with him - that's just not how good
magicians do things, they tell you the truth, but not the whole truth, it's
the bit's that are left out wherein lies the magic - in this case, the
audience thinks, wow, lady picked at random and her shoe appears on train at
platform of her choice, what they don't know is that the SHOES were forced
on her before the action began! Now that is sublime =)
Post by zippeedeedoodaa
finally, also.. if he wasn't above using a stooge in the 'card on
Eh??? The whole point is that he WAS using a stooge in card on the train,
but wasn't in the second effect, the secret being left for the viewers to
wonder about.
Post by zippeedeedoodaa
train', why be above it with 'shoe on train' ?
in fact wouldn't that just be sublime ???
I mean ..well... it would certainly fool a few 'competent magicians'
Sure you could fool magicians if you simply lied about the setup, just as
David Blaine did with the levitation on his programme when he used dodgy
editing but said he hadn't... This didn't win him any respect, however...
Personally I'd have far more respect for the magician who finds a way to
make the apparently impossible possible. OK I don't know for sure, and have
to accept I may be wrong, but personally when I hear a magician say "no
stooges", (even by proxy), I believe there are no stooges and look for
another method because I believe in magic rather than plain lies. But even
if your theory is right, the truly magical imagination doesn't look for such
debase explanations, but tries to figure a truly magical way to do that
impossible thing, just as I've done.
I'd warrant that that's why although I'm not a particularly skilful
performer, I've created some excellent magic in my own right, whereas people
like you might graduate from packet tricks to truly great technique, but
you're nothing without the magical thinkers like us ;o)
fLaMePr0oF <><
Pritesh
2003-08-05 11:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Thats what I thought as well. How do you exactly make the shoe vanish
? I don't think they had enough time to buy identical shoes. She could
caught the train straight away. Need to allow 2 hours to buy identical
shoes & plant stooges carrying the shoes in every train arriving at
the station at that time. Bearing in mind some of the trains' previous
stops maybe an hour away. Also could have to wait a long time for the
train to arrive. I was thinking more of observing on certain commuters
with new looking shoes over few days & notice which platform they
catch the trains from & when they catch the train. Likely to pick that
platform when asked which platform to pick by the magician. This
allows more time & planning. They buy the shoes a day advance & plant
stooges on certain trains which would arrive on desired platforms.
Pritesh
2003-08-05 17:33:19 UTC
Permalink
One important point I forgot to mention the targeted group must have
visited the local shoe shop during the last few days prior to the
trick to be observed by the Magician's team in order to find out their
shoe size. Can't know their shoe size by just looking at their feet.

How about the other trick where the ring end up on the snake. No other
offered a explanation for that. Did they use a magnet or something ?
Will Tingle
2003-08-05 18:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pritesh
One important point I forgot to mention the targeted group must have
visited the local shoe shop during the last few days prior to the
trick to be observed by the Magician's team in order to find out their
shoe size. Can't know their shoe size by just looking at their feet.
No, but you can ask the person who sold them shoes...
--
Will Tingle
--
Remove YOUR.PANTS to e-mail
--
"I have always made sure that the instructions were quite incomprehensible."
-Mark Lewis; author of "the long and short of it"
fLaMePr0oF
2003-08-05 11:01:53 UTC
Permalink
He he, nice move Dan, hope you get some exposure out of it!

You're right though, I'd really rather not know just now how the 'real'
tricks were done, (unless in the future I wanna do something similar ;o)

I've just been hypothesising how the shoe on the train effect *could* have
been achieved, I'm probably miles away from the truth, (can you tell me if
I'm hot or cold?), but I just love to watch good jaw dropping magic, and I
find it stirs up my creative juices afterwards - I often come up with some
of my best ideas for effects after observing really good magic.

As I've said, I'm not much of a performer; I mostly do Gospel magic within
my church / ministry circles, and the occasional gig by refferal just for
fun mostly, but what I really love is to think up new ways to make the
apparently impossible seem possible =OP Just goes to show that you don't
have to be a seasoned / skilled performer to create good magic for good
magicians.

Right now I'm really just looking for ways to get more exposure for my
effects. Appart from sharing the odd idea here in the NG's, I've been
thinking about approaching dealers and possibly marketing e-Books /
manuscripts etc. Any advice from anyone in this area would be greatly
appreciated!

fLaMePr0oF <><
hi every 1.
i was actually on this show!
i was Dan the guy with the big blonde hair who checked the mirror for the
first trick, i got on to the show under the pretense on being a layman and
got to talk to and migle and promote myself to the producers, jon lenahan
and people like anthony owen. If any magician really want to discuss any
of
the tricks drop me a line as i was there to observe them and could help.
Although, if i were you i wouldnt want to know how they were done.
Cya
Dan Dan The Magic Man
Post by Pritesh
In the Saturdays programme 'The secrets of Magic' they shows magic
tricks in the normal way after the tricks were revealed for the
unconventional ways but never revealed how they were done for the
normal ones. Could anyone guess how they were done ? I'm particularly
interested in how the magician made the woman's shoe vanish and
reappeared when the man dressed in bull fighters costume came out of
the train and took out her shoe from his bag and how the woman's ring
end up on the snake.
Neil Trigger
2003-08-06 13:56:22 UTC
Permalink
I once bought 17 great magic books on one CD from e-bay for 10 quid. can you
do a deal like that?

--
Neil Trigger
http://www.magic2k.com - The Ultimate Magic Resource.
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s***@gmail.com
2017-11-20 04:04:09 UTC
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I think I know how he got her to pick platform 12. He asked her to hurry and he said "pick one today" she heard "pick 1 2day" and because she was stressed by having cameras on her, being excited and him rushing her she said the first thing that came into her head which was 1 2 twelve.
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