Discussion:
Cyril Takayama - water bottle refill
(too old to reply)
McM
2006-08-12 23:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
does anyone know where can I buy that one where Cyril empties a water bottle

and then refill it?



Thanks in advance
Orbis
2006-08-13 02:40:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi, does anyone know where can I buy that one where Cyril
empties a water bottle and then refill it?
Use a tap.
Andrw
2006-08-13 09:42:25 UTC
Permalink
EBAY!
Post by Orbis
Hi, does anyone know where can I buy that one where Cyril
empties a water bottle and then refill it?
Use a tap.
Ray Haddad
2006-08-13 10:13:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:01:28 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by McM
Hi,
does anyone know where can I buy that one where Cyril empties a water bottle
and then refill it?
Thanks in advance
You really should consider doing the one where McM creates his own
miracle and performs it better than anyone else ever could.

You're welcome.
--
Ray
Lim-Dul
2006-08-13 10:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
You really should consider doing the one where McM creates his own
miracle and performs it better than anyone else ever could.
You're welcome.
--
Ray
Hmmm - I think that is the attitude everybody is speaking about. ;-)

Jan Milewski
Ray Haddad
2006-08-13 13:16:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:36:02 +0200, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
You really should consider doing the one where McM creates his own
miracle and performs it better than anyone else ever could.
You're welcome.
--
Ray
Hmmm - I think that is the attitude everybody is speaking about. ;-)
Seriously, Jan. Can you imagine if everyone did everything you
performed? Can you imagine that your self respect would be in the
sewer after doing Cyril's act word for word? Yet, here we see folk
who want to do just that very thing. I say let them. If they really
want to make their mark in magic, they'll do something original.
--
Ray

"Just when I've thought you've said the stupidest thing ever,
you keep talking." - Hank Hill "King Of The Hill"
Lim-Dul
2006-08-13 18:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Seriously, Jan. Can you imagine if everyone did everything you
performed? Can you imagine that your self respect would be in the
sewer after doing Cyril's act word for word? Yet, here we see folk
who want to do just that very thing. I say let them. If they really
want to make their mark in magic, they'll do something original.
Then say it this way right away, and not in the manner you did. -.-

Jan Milewski
Ray Haddad
2006-08-13 23:04:08 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:29:53 +0200, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
Seriously, Jan. Can you imagine if everyone did everything you
performed? Can you imagine that your self respect would be in the
sewer after doing Cyril's act word for word? Yet, here we see folk
who want to do just that very thing. I say let them. If they really
want to make their mark in magic, they'll do something original.
Then say it this way right away, and not in the manner you did. -.-
No thanks. I know what I'm doing. The concept has to come to you
rather than from me. Look at all the resistance people get around
here from ignorant twits who think they're God's gift to magic
because they can ask where to buy Cyril's trick and imagine
themselves on TV performing it.

Magic performance is not all about having the latest trick. It's
about making something into your own performance. I'm sure you've
seen magicians who actually perform a trick mimicking a video or DVD
presentation of the originator word for word.

Trust me. I know how to teach others magic and it's not ever going
to be easy or pleasant for the whining children here.
--
Ray
Lim-Dul
2006-08-13 23:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Trust me. I know how to teach others magic and it's not ever going
to be easy or pleasant for the whining children here.
--
Ray
I believe Daryl teaches magic *a bit* better than you. ;-)

The only thing I've got from you so far is an explanation of an Elmsley
Count, that I already knew (I wouldn't even look into this newsgroup if
I didn't) and that didn't get me any further in my NFW problem.

Well - but that's why I got Daryl's DVDs for a start (well - not "start"
per se, but to improve my card handling), since he doesn't explain card
tricks, but WAYS how to DO tricks. These DVDs are very helpful - it's
just like reading a nice book on card sleights but with good pictures -
if I practice a bit more I will be able to add many original card tricks
to my repertoire. =)

Jan Milewski
Andrw
2006-08-14 00:48:47 UTC
Permalink
why do alot of people here seam to want to be better that another?
I've been in them business along time - ive been on tv in the uk and i adore
watching other perform as it give me inspiration -espically when i see
younger performers onstage. people have to learn our profession from
somewhere. it doesnt just 'happen' its has to be learnt. its a shame people
forget that when we're gone so maybe our trade.
"I believe Daryl teaches magic *a bit* better than you. ;-)" so what - -
there are tonns of dvds and books out there to learn from - now presentation
is something that comes from watching others and a LOT of practice. or maybe
im wrong. I know I people haddnt help me when I was younger then I would
have personally achieved what I have.

Andrw
xx
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
Trust me. I know how to teach others magic and it's not ever going
to be easy or pleasant for the whining children here.
--
Ray
I believe Daryl teaches magic *a bit* better than you. ;-)
The only thing I've got from you so far is an explanation of an Elmsley
Count, that I already knew (I wouldn't even look into this newsgroup if I
didn't) and that didn't get me any further in my NFW problem.
Well - but that's why I got Daryl's DVDs for a start (well - not "start"
per se, but to improve my card handling), since he doesn't explain card
tricks, but WAYS how to DO tricks. These DVDs are very helpful - it's just
like reading a nice book on card sleights but with good pictures - if I
practice a bit more I will be able to add many original card tricks to my
repertoire. =)
Jan Milewski
Lim-Dul
2006-08-14 11:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrw
"I believe Daryl teaches magic *a bit* better than you. ;-)" so what - -
there are tonns of dvds and books out there to learn from - now presentation
is something that comes from watching others and a LOT of practice. or maybe
im wrong. I know I people haddnt help me when I was younger then I would
have personally achieved what I have.
Andrw
xx
You didn't read my post thoroughly - I appreciate help when I get or see
it - Steve and Macros and even Oz Pearlman helped a lot with the initial
count of NFW - Ray just sent me an e-mail about the Elmsley Count in
which he seemed to brag more about his knowing Alex Elmsley, than
actually helping.

And no - I don't want to buy some Cyril Takayama trick - I'm not even
the guy who started the thread.

And yes, I do learn my trick by watching others and when I can't grasp a
concept, or find the answer myself, cause I don't like to bother people
when I don't need to, then and only THEN am I resorting to asking a
question - not about how a trick works or where I can buy it, but about
a certain technique.

Meanwhile I've come so far, that I'm able to distinguish most techniques
used in card tricks or at least think of a technique that will achieve
the same result. By that means I am able to "reverse-engineer" many
tricks (not all of them of course) - let's take NFW - I haven't bought
the trick, I didn't watch the explanation - nevertheless I knew how it
works (except for the initial count) since I'm familiar with double
facers and double-stick tape. =).

Since reverse-engineering tricks is a much more fun and creative process
than simply mimicking them by buying a video or whatever, I am more
often than not able to alter the routine a small or large bit, or to add
some touches at the beginning, in the middle or at the end.

Jan Milewski
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 16:21:32 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:17:01 +0200, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Lim-Dul
You didn't read my post thoroughly - I appreciate help when I get or see
it - Steve and Macros and even Oz Pearlman helped a lot with the initial
count of NFW - Ray just sent me an e-mail about the Elmsley Count in
which he seemed to brag more about his knowing Alex Elmsley, than
actually helping.
I mentioned that I met Alex Elmsley in a sentence. I spent a few
hundred words describing precisely how to accomplish what you wanted
to do. I offered you an alternative to the grief you were having.
You chose not to use it. No big deal. But, when you attempted to
make fun of that advice here, you eliminated any further help from
me.
--
Ray
Lim-Dul
2006-08-14 17:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
I mentioned that I met Alex Elmsley in a sentence. I spent a few
hundred words describing precisely how to accomplish what you wanted
to do. I offered you an alternative to the grief you were having.
You chose not to use it. No big deal. But, when you attempted to
make fun of that advice here, you eliminated any further help from
me.
Oh no! I chose to ignore your great advice which was, lemme recall -
hide 3 face down cards by using 2 face up cards and an Elmsley Count?
Well - I surely think that in this case I really will be able to ignore
further advice coming from you, oh master magician. ;-)

Jan Milewski
Lim-Dul
2006-08-14 17:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
I mentioned that I met Alex Elmsley in a sentence. I spent a few
hundred words describing precisely how to accomplish what you wanted
to do. I offered you an alternative to the grief you were having.
You chose not to use it. No big deal. But, when you attempted to
make fun of that advice here, you eliminated any further help from
me.
--
Ray
Ah - and let's not forget the patronizing tone - if there's one thing I
can't stand then it's being patronized by complete strangers - no matter
what their intentions are.

Jan Milewski
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 22:39:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:51:59 +0200, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
I mentioned that I met Alex Elmsley in a sentence. I spent a few
hundred words describing precisely how to accomplish what you wanted
to do. I offered you an alternative to the grief you were having.
You chose not to use it. No big deal. But, when you attempted to
make fun of that advice here, you eliminated any further help from
me.
Ah - and let's not forget the patronizing tone - if there's one thing I
can't stand then it's being patronized by complete strangers - no matter
what their intentions are.
Jan, if your skin is that thin, you'd best find a new career. Better
yet, don't give up your day job. McDonald's rarely hires people a
second time.
--
Ray
Lim-Dul
2006-08-15 00:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Jan, if your skin is that thin, you'd best find a new career. Better
yet, don't give up your day job. McDonald's rarely hires people a
second time.
--
Ray
There it is again - well - I hope you like being an asshole. To
paraphrase your golden thought: Ray, if you are such a dickhead in real
life, then you'd best find a good hiding place, cause I suppose there
are more than, uhm, a million people who would like to kick you in the face.

Good that there are plenty of other people who are willing to help and
actually do help people - resorting to your "help" would be the last
thing I'd do.

I don't intend to take this flame any further, since a) it is pointless
b) there will be loads of guys who will flame for me - Ray is just a
flame magnet - I know this type of person when I see one.

Jan Milewski

P.S. I guess Ray will be responding to this with another dim-witted
comment dressed in nice words, as he always HAS to have the last word
from what I can see on this newsgroup.
Mark Wilden
2006-08-14 01:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Magic performance is not all about having the latest trick.
Magic performance is about anything the performer and his audience want it
to be - including slavishly imitating another performer. There's absolutely
nothing wrong with that.

If one is motivated to do so, and gifted enough to have the ability, it's
nice to advance the art. For the rest of us, pleasing the audience and
having fun in the process is all that magic performance is "about."
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 03:12:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:22:43 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
Magic performance is not all about having the latest trick.
Magic performance is about anything the performer and his audience want it
to be - including slavishly imitating another performer. There's absolutely
nothing wrong with that.
If one is motivated to do so, and gifted enough to have the ability, it's
nice to advance the art. For the rest of us, pleasing the audience and
having fun in the process is all that magic performance is "about."
You can get away with that until someone does YOUR act better than
you. Don't laugh. It's done all the time.
--
Ray
Mark Wilden
2006-08-14 03:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
You can get away with that until someone does YOUR act better than
you. Don't laugh. It's done all the time.
As long as you're pleasing your audience, who cares?

///ark
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 03:42:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:36:19 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
You can get away with that until someone does YOUR act better than
you. Don't laugh. It's done all the time.
As long as you're pleasing your audience, who cares?
Your internal ethics committee. You know. The one that cares whether
or not you steal someone else's material.
--
Ray
Mark Wilden
2006-08-14 04:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by Mark Wilden
As long as you're pleasing your audience, who cares?
Your internal ethics committee. You know. The one that cares whether
or not you steal someone else's material.
We're talking about repeating a routine that someone taught you via a DVD
that you bought. I don't have any ethics (just certain actions or nonactions
that make me more or less happy), but if I did, I wouldn't consider such
repetition a violation of them.

///ark
Jim Kawashima
2006-08-14 04:50:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
You can get away with that until someone does YOUR act better than
you. Don't laugh. It's done all the time.
As long as you're pleasing your audience, who cares?
///ark
Because it's LAAAAAME.



I'll explain.

The field of professional magic is filled with performers complaining
about amateurs souring the market. They note that a club who hires a
bad singer won't hesitate to hire a good one later, but the same club
who hires a lame magician will often swear off magic acts.

My belief, which few professionals share, is that the responsibility
for this woeful situation does not lie with the amateurs. How can it?
They don't know any better. The responsibility lies with professionals
who fail to communicate the level of skill they possess over and above
the amateur's.

It's difficult, of course, to communicate "skill" when we're
simultaneously using our skills to hide magic's secrets. That's why
many reputable card workers swear off flourishes on the grounds that
they lessen the effect of magic. Magic should appear to happen
effortlessly to seem truly "magical."

The problem is that, if magic appears truly skill-free, then the
magician becomes irrelevant, interchangeable, generic. Just some guy
with a credit card. Think of it this way, does anyone ever come here
trolling for a place to buy a one-handed faro shuffle or rolldown coin
display?

(I should add that I am in no way a flourish-freak, and am in fact part
of the camp that views flourishes as impressive but unmagical, like
juggling; just trying to make a point is all).

Adding to this is the public perception of magic, one that the shops we
support do little to correct, the notion that anyone can buy a trick
and be a magician. Yes, I know we will all say, over and over again,
that there is more to magic than just tricks. And we're right when we
say it. The problem is that the public doesn't see it that way. The
mantra is ours, not theirs. And that, too, is the responsibility of
the professional to address. Whose else's can it be? Who else is
positioned to make a difference AND cares enough to try?

Bob Cassidy once likened modern mentalism to a giant karaoke bar.
Because most people never hear a real singer in training, they're
likely to applaud anything they hear that's remotely in tune.
Likewise, many mentalists get away with landing paying gigs just
because they know a few tricks and adopt a self-important air. Just as
many beginner magicians buy a few tricks and immediately try to start
landing paying gigs. Doesn't make them professionals. Doesn't
distinguish them from each other. But it does behoove the true
professional to distinguish himself from them.

Skill is, as I'd mentioned, one way to do it. I also employ a certain
level of professionalism in my attitude that also helps. When I take a
gig, I make it a point to help the host plan the function, make sure to
entertain any special guests or VIPs that the host may identify, and in
general try to inspire confidence as a professional who's done this
many times. That's one of the ways I distinguish myself, and it works.
They may not remember a single trick I did (except my PK Touches ...
they always remember that), but they remember me, personally. And
since I am the product, not my gimmicks and sleights, that's exactly
the way I want it.

By the way, along those lines, there's a restaurant worker technique
I've developed consistent with this philosophy. Under no circumstances
will I approach a table with a trick. I will always introduce myself
first and, this is the secret now, carry myself as if I were the owner
or at least the maitre'd. In other words, behave as if I am a
professional who belongs there. It's all in the attitude.

Anyway, point is, if we allow ourselves to say it's "okay" to imitate
others as long as we're "entertaining [some] people" (which doesn't
take much at all, honestly), then we're failing to distinguish skilled
professionals from gimmick-buying amateurs. We're also setting our
sights way WAY too low. We're allowing ourselves to be lame and/or
forgiving others for being lame. We are contributing to, or at least
failing to discourage, the attitude of the person that started this
thread (who I suspect may have just been a troll), that any trick you
see can be bought somewhere and performed just the way Cyril does it.

Again, that's the fault of those of us complaining, not the naive
amateur who doesn't know better.

None of this makes it any less aggravating, though, to see trolling
such as that which started this thread. It's a reminder to those of us
who DO know better that way toomany people think magic can be bought,
ready-made. It's why you'll see people like me and Ray occasionally
harp on people like "McM" or Mitch Leary, who attach disproportionate
significance to the "trick [the method by which you fool]" and none at
all to the "effect [the method by which you ENTERTAIN]." We all love
clever tricks; it's how pretty much all of us got started. But tricks
are the beginning of magic, not its goal.

So, bottom line, to answer the admittedly rhetorical question I quoted
above, it's not enough to "please" your audience. The magician must
himself be entertaining, not merely rely upon clever tricks anyone can
buy. When that distinction is clear to everyone, we'll at last stop
getting trolls, munchkins and wannabes asking where they can buy the
latest trick they've seen on YouTube.com. They'll stop, because
they'll at last know that they're seeing something that must be
developed, not purchased.

After all, there's the real answer to McM's question, "where can you
guy Cyril's water bottle refill," which is to tell him, "buy the bottle
at any store where you can buy bottles, get the water at the tap and
apply a great deal of magical skill."

Magically yours,

Jim Kawashima
Mark Wilden
2006-08-14 05:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Kawashima
So, bottom line, to answer the admittedly rhetorical question I quoted
above, it's not enough to "please" your audience.
I'm not a pro, and actually I wasn't addressing my comments to pros only.

But I entirely disagree that it's not enough to please your audience. That's
good enough for me (whose audience is his own family) and (from your
message) it appears to be good enough for many pros, as well.

If you please your audience better than the next guy, you'll get work and/or
approbation. That's the bottom line. If you choose to set up a little
rulebook for yourself about how to do tricks and whose tricks to copy or not
copy, and whether to use their patter or not, that's fine. But don't expect
anyone else to buy into it. Why should they?

I think there are far too many people in this world who think they should be
able to tell other people what to do.

Not that I'd ever tell them not to do it, of course.

///ark
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 07:28:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:31:46 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Jim Kawashima
So, bottom line, to answer the admittedly rhetorical question I quoted
above, it's not enough to "please" your audience.
I'm not a pro, and actually I wasn't addressing my comments to pros only.
But I entirely disagree that it's not enough to please your audience. That's
good enough for me (whose audience is his own family) and (from your
message) it appears to be good enough for many pros, as well.
If you please your audience better than the next guy, you'll get work and/or
approbation. That's the bottom line. If you choose to set up a little
rulebook for yourself about how to do tricks and whose tricks to copy or not
copy, and whether to use their patter or not, that's fine. But don't expect
anyone else to buy into it. Why should they?
I think there are far too many people in this world who think they should be
able to tell other people what to do.
Not that I'd ever tell them not to do it, of course.
You do know the difference between polite applause and genuine
appreciation. Right? Please tell me you know the difference.
--
Ray
Mark Wilden
2006-08-14 14:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
You do know the difference between polite applause and genuine
appreciation. Right? Please tell me you know the difference.
Are you suggesting I don't know when I've pleased an audience? It's
interesting to ponder on what basis a person could make such a statement.
Next, you'll be saying my wife has been faking it all these years.

///ark
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 22:43:28 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:30:44 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
You do know the difference between polite applause and genuine
appreciation. Right? Please tell me you know the difference.
Are you suggesting I don't know when I've pleased an audience? It's
interesting to ponder on what basis a person could make such a statement.
Next, you'll be saying my wife has been faking it all these years.
Almost suggesting that. I asked a question. You didn't really
answer. Instead, you chose the challenge the question. Normally,
that directly implies that I struck a nerve. I don't believe you've
ever received thunderous applause and wouldn't really know genuine
audience appreciation unless someone pointed it out to you.

You, as an entertainer, must direct your audience not simply be
reactive. If you can't be the maestro on stage, leave the stage.
It's not for you.
--
Ray
Mark Wilden
2006-08-15 02:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Almost suggesting that. I asked a question. You didn't really
answer. Instead, you chose the challenge the question. Normally,
that directly implies that I struck a nerve.
You're wrong. When a person asks a stupid question, and I challenge it, that
does not mean (at least in my case) that a nerve was struck. It means
(again, in my case), that I think it was a stupid question.
Post by Ray Haddad
I don't believe you've
ever received thunderous applause and wouldn't really know genuine
audience appreciation unless someone pointed it out to you.
Truly amazing, this divination. You must really be a magician! No wonder
you're so well-loved here.

///ark
Mark Wilden
2006-08-15 02:34:05 UTC
Permalink
I don't believe you've ever received thunderous applause
Not for magic, no (in my own profession, yes - just twice). What I get from
my audiences (which are my friends and family) is slack-jawed incredulity.
and wouldn't really know genuine audience appreciation unless someone
pointed it out to you.
I'm very gratified by the aforementioned response. Now you will argue that I
shouldn't be.

///ark
Ray Haddad
2006-08-15 07:47:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:14:30 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
Almost suggesting that. I asked a question. You didn't really
answer. Instead, you chose the challenge the question. Normally,
that directly implies that I struck a nerve.
You're wrong. When a person asks a stupid question, and I challenge it, that
does not mean (at least in my case) that a nerve was struck. It means
(again, in my case), that I think it was a stupid question.
I did. I did strike a nerver. Look at you wiggling around on the end
of my pitchfork. LOL
Post by Mark Wilden
Post by Ray Haddad
I don't believe you've
ever received thunderous applause and wouldn't really know genuine
audience appreciation unless someone pointed it out to you.
Truly amazing, this divination. You must really be a magician! No wonder
you're so well-loved here.
Guess what? I don't have to please you one single bit. You never
will write my paycheck for me. If you do, it may be the largest one
you have ever written.
--
Ray
Mark Wilden
2006-08-15 14:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
I did. I did strike a nerver. Look at you wiggling around on the end
of my pitchfork. LOL
Oooooooh K. I'm no psychiatrist, but it's clear who I'm dealing with now.
It's plonkin' time.

Buh-bye, Ray. Have a good trip. :)

///ark
Lim-Dul
2006-08-15 15:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Wilden
Oooooooh K. I'm no psychiatrist, but it's clear who I'm dealing with now.
It's plonkin' time.
Buh-bye, Ray. Have a good trip. :)
Wow? You too? :-D I think one could add a special point about Ray in the
FAQ - like, if you want to have a nice and peaceful stay in this
newsgroup, then add Ray to your killfile right at the beginning. ;-)

I mean - I have been around here for just a couple of weeks but still
Ray did manage to upset me more than once in this short period of time. ;-)

Jan Milewski
Richard Waters
2006-08-18 10:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Lim-Dul furiously typed the following on 16/08/2006 1:22 AM:

[snip]
Post by Lim-Dul
I mean - I have been around here for just a couple of weeks but still
Ray did manage to upset me more than once in this short period of time. ;-)
Jan Milewski
Weeks? *laugh* Get a thicker skin...?

:-D -- Richard W
Lim-Dul
2006-08-18 10:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Waters
Weeks? *laugh* Get a thicker skin...?
:-D -- Richard W
Why? To have Ray annoy me some more? Filtering him out is way easier. I
have no need to prove that I'm some kind of tough guy or compare my
penis size with others through the internet. If someone is a dickhead
and chances are that he will remain one, then he lands in my killfile.

Jan Milewski

Bruce Barnett
2006-08-14 11:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Wilden
If you please your audience better than the next guy, you'll get
work and/or approbation. That's the bottom line.
A hooker once told me the same thing. :-)


Seriously - you have to know your audience.
The same jokes and gags don't work for the same audiences.
One crowd would love them, and the other would be horrified.
The phrase "cheap laughs" springs to mind.

There is a difference between immediate audience gratification, and
long-standing impressions. Consider insults and blue humor. Some
crowds love them, and let you know vocally. But what about those in
the audience who don't?

You also have to please the people who are PAYING for the magic.
Or who may be purchasing your services for later.

One of the biggest problems is the entertainer who thinks they know
their audiences perfectly, and refuse to acknowledge their flaws and
adapt. If you match the audience, fine. But often acts don't target
the right audience, or else miss the boat completely.

Ken Weber's book comes to mind.
--
Sending unsolicited commercial e-mail to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
Ray Haddad
2006-08-14 07:27:42 UTC
Permalink
On 13 Aug 2006 21:50:33 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and
Post by Jim Kawashima
By the way, along those lines, there's a restaurant worker technique
I've developed consistent with this philosophy. Under no circumstances
will I approach a table with a trick. I will always introduce myself
first and, this is the secret now, carry myself as if I were the owner
or at least the maitre'd. In other words, behave as if I am a
professional who belongs there. It's all in the attitude.
For those of you smart enough to be following this thread, you have
found the cherry in the onion stew.

This, my friends, is what being a PROFESSIONAL magician is all
about. It's in the attitude.

Well done, Jim.
--
Ray
Ian Wragg
2006-08-14 08:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Snipped for size (ooer missus)
Post by Jim Kawashima
The problem is that, if magic appears truly skill-free, then the
magician becomes irrelevant, interchangeable, generic. Just some guy
with a credit card. Think of it this way, does anyone ever come here
trolling for a place to buy a one-handed faro shuffle or rolldown coin
display?
but they remember me, personally. And
Post by Jim Kawashima
since I am the product, not my gimmicks and sleights, that's exactly
the way I want it.
Jim,

That was brilliant. Post that response to EVERY circle going. Guys if you
read only 1 (erm well 2 if you include this 1) post on this ng read Jim's
full post, then re-read then learn from it.
I won't add more because it didn't really need it. All points brilliantly
covered.

Thanks

Ian
Jim Kawashima
2006-08-14 19:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Much thanks to Ray & Ian for your kind words. Your opinions mean a
great deal.

Regarding Mark's response, I was only answering the question you asked
as to why it's not enough to please your audience. I was not "telling
you what to do" or issuing "a little rulebook." Actually, I didn't
state any "rules," per se, so you're engaging in straw man
argumentation. And while I did not and will not "tell you what to do,"
I can't resist asking YOU a rhetorical-sounding question, the answer to
which I would nonetheless be interested in reading:

Don't you think it's just a little self-contradictory to expend effort
to defend mediocrity?

Let me clarify that before anyone gets in a tizzy over what
"mediocrity" constitutes ("Hey, don't call me that! You've never seen
me perform! My sponge bunny routine is second to none! I've won the
Western Akron Regional Semifinal Close-Up Coin Magic Competition two
years in a row! Slydini himself laughed at my jokes!" etc.).

"Mediocrity" is when you think it's "enough" to "please" your audience.
Read that carefully, please. I'm not saying you should "displease"
your audience. I *am* saying it's only the beginning of magic, and
shouldn't be treated as its goal.

Oh, and to clarify what I meant by "straw man," one example would be to
claim I was issuing rules rather than challenges. Another example
would be the parenthetical I employed two paragraphs up.

One last question: would a professional attitude be a bad thing, even
for an amateur?

Magically yours,

Jim Kawashima
Mark Wilden
2006-08-15 02:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Kawashima
Much thanks to Ray & Ian for your kind words. Your opinions mean a
great deal.
Regarding Mark's response, I was only answering the question you asked
as to why it's not enough to please your audience. I was not "telling
you what to do" or issuing "a little rulebook."
Those things are the same. If someone believes that it -is- "enough to
please your audience" and you say it isn't, you're telling him he's wrong to
believe the way he does. He's wrong, because he's breaking a rule that you
believe in.

My point is that you should feel free to hold the beliefs about your own
fulfillment that make sense to you. That doesn't mean that someone else's
beliefs are wrong.
Post by Jim Kawashima
Don't you think it's just a little self-contradictory to expend effort
to defend mediocrity?
Straw man - meet loaded question. :)

I maintain that if someone is pleasing himself and his audience, he has
succeeded in meeting important goals. For example, I may be a mediocre
football player. However, I enjoy playing and others enjoy playing with me.
I'll never be a good football player (by any reasonable definition of
"good"). Should I quit playing? By your logic, any argument against quitting
would be "defending mediocrity."
Post by Jim Kawashima
"Mediocrity" is when you think it's "enough" to "please" your audience.
Read that carefully, please. I'm not saying you should "displease"
your audience. I *am* saying it's only the beginning of magic, and
shouldn't be treated as its goal.
Again with the "should." Who are you to decide what another person should
treat as the goal of magic? That's all I'm saying. Why not mind your own
business, decided your own goals, and live and let live?

(BTW, I think I personally would agree with your goals - that's not the
point, though.)
Post by Jim Kawashima
One last question: would a professional attitude be a bad thing, even
for an amateur?
This is just another loaded question. "Professional attitude" and
"mediocrity" are precisely what you're trying to define here.
Ian Wragg
2006-08-15 09:08:46 UTC
Permalink
"Jim Kawashima" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

snip
Post by Jim Kawashima
"Mediocrity" is when you think it's "enough" to "please" your audience.
Read that carefully, please. I'm not saying you should "displease"
your audience. I *am* saying it's only the beginning of magic, and
shouldn't be treated as its goal.
Hi Jim

More great advice but on the above point I don't whether to agree or shoot
you lol. It all depends on what aspect are we talking? Magic vs.
Entertaining?
I have argued this with many people over the years lol.

As an entertainer the only point is to ensure that the audience is
entertained and enjoyed your performance, beginning and end of argument.
Be it as a singer dancer juggler whatever if the audience leave feeling
happy that's the job done. The comments Mark said earlier in thread are
100% valid. If he pleases his audience, be it friends, family whatever if
they have truly enjoyed the show, then the job's a good 'un as they say. If
they are being polite then the performer (Not Mark per se) really does need
to look at his performance.

We have all done seen great magic done that was boring. So, has he failed
as an entertainer? YES. As a magical performance? NO.
I bet we have also seen magicians whose magic was so so but who were
funny/charming and also entertaining, then just reverse the above answers.

You are also 100 % correct above in that if you want to further the art of
"Magic" then that is where you start. By building on the performance and
improving the content and disregarding the stuff that doesn't work. (This
should be done anyway ) But do you consider it mediocre for any entertainer
to be content/happy in the knowledge that he has entertained his audience
and left them with a smile on his face? I don't.

This is where there will always be arguments and my answer is too each his
own. Is entertainment more important than magic?
I honestly don't think there is a correct answer, personally I believe they
are equally important. I know you can be a great Magician and ENTERTAINING.
If however all you can do is just perform miracle after miracle without
personality or enjoyment then you have failed.

(Off on a tangent here lol)

Magicians as a whole tend to consider magic that fools them and other
magicians as the be all and end all, this is a very myopic view of magic.
We (professionals/amateurs/hobbyists and David Blaine Meow lol) don't as a
rule perform for other magi we perform to the lay public and they are always
the people we should consider.
This is 1 downfall of local Magic Circles, where every week/fortnight/month
people try to learn the latest magician fooler.(I am a founder of the local
circle and we do try not to do this lol)
Show it to a layman and they say SO WHAT. They don't realise that you
didn't do the False Under Cut Knuckle Slide Upperpushoff move (if anyone
invents this move I claim rights to the name, read the initials. Wasn't that
the Wragg F**ks Up move???? ) to get the card from the middle of the deck to
3 from the top!

My mentor told me anyone can do a magic trick, but a magician makes it fun
and entertaining. I was also taught to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) I
don't always apply this to method but always to presentation and theme.

What's the point of learning a magic trick if you are never going to perform
it to at least 1 person??? If a magician performs a trick and has no
audience to witness it, is he still a magician ;-)???

IMHO

Ian

P.S. How many magicians does it take to change a light bulb? 10. 1 to
change the bulb, and the other 9 to say either "I could've done it better"
or "It would've been better if he did another way""
Ray Haddad
2006-08-15 10:41:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:08:46 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Ian Wragg
P.S. How many magicians does it take to change a light bulb? 10. 1 to
change the bulb, and the other 9 to say either "I could've done it better"
or "It would've been better if he did another way""
Make that 11. There's going to be at least one who saw David Blaine
do it and wants to know where to buy the trick.
--
Ray
WhoDaGuy
2006-08-16 21:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:08:46 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Ian Wragg
P.S. How many magicians does it take to change a light bulb? 10. 1 to
change the bulb, and the other 9 to say either "I could've done it better"
or "It would've been better if he did another way""
Make that 11. There's going to be at least one who saw David Blaine
do it and wants to know where to buy the trick.
--
Ray
or 10 more who are going to say that "they used to have that in their act"

WDG
Ray Haddad
2006-08-16 23:09:03 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:22:20 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Ian Wragg
Post by Ray Haddad
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:08:46 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Ian Wragg
P.S. How many magicians does it take to change a light bulb? 10. 1 to
change the bulb, and the other 9 to say either "I could've done it
better"
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by Ian Wragg
or "It would've been better if he did another way""
Make that 11. There's going to be at least one who saw David Blaine
do it and wants to know where to buy the trick.
or 10 more who are going to say that "they used to have that in their act"
And they all believe they can do it better than that hack, Blaine.
--
Ray
WhoDaGuy
2006-08-15 01:51:10 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
sewer after doing Cyril's act word for word? Yet, here we see folk
who want to do just that very thing. I say let them. If they really
want to make their mark in magic, they'll do something original.
Then say it this way right away, and not in the manner you did. -.-
<snip>
Post by Ray Haddad
themselves on TV performing it.
Magic performance is not all about having the latest trick. It's
about making something into your own performance. I'm sure you've
seen magicians who actually perform a trick mimicking a video or DVD
presentation of the originator word for word.
Trust me. I know how to teach others magic and it's not ever going
to be easy or pleasant for the whining children here.
--
Ray
these are all true, but then there are some things that are just being done
to get them done, for example i am putting together a stage/platform act
right now and i have some original things in it, but that refilling water
bottle would be great for a particular part of it and i don't have the time
to come up with a new and innovative way to perform it, so if it were
available i would buy it.

similar to that japanese magician who did the manipulation act at FISM in
03, with the paint pallet and the lemon, and also the routine with the
marker and the notepad, which i didn't like as well, but that was a personal
take on the timing of his moves, but anyways, i would love to buy those and
focus on the performance instead of having to "be perfectly inventive"

Ed Marlo was probably the greatest card magician of all time, but to watch
him perform was like watching corn grow, sure there is a gust of wind
everyonce in a while, but other than that, pretty boring, and i would
consider him not a friend but a good acquaintance. one of his students is a
good friend, similar performance style.

anyways, ranting off, if that is what i was doing.

and Ray I wish I had a flameproof suti i could lend you, i hear that
copperfield has one left over from some special.

WDG
Ray Haddad
2006-08-15 07:54:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:51:10 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by WhoDaGuy
<snip>
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by Lim-Dul
Post by Ray Haddad
sewer after doing Cyril's act word for word? Yet, here we see folk
who want to do just that very thing. I say let them. If they really
want to make their mark in magic, they'll do something original.
Then say it this way right away, and not in the manner you did. -.-
<snip>
Post by Ray Haddad
themselves on TV performing it.
Magic performance is not all about having the latest trick. It's
about making something into your own performance. I'm sure you've
seen magicians who actually perform a trick mimicking a video or DVD
presentation of the originator word for word.
Trust me. I know how to teach others magic and it's not ever going
to be easy or pleasant for the whining children here.
these are all true, but then there are some things that are just being done
to get them done, for example i am putting together a stage/platform act
right now and i have some original things in it, but that refilling water
bottle would be great for a particular part of it and i don't have the time
to come up with a new and innovative way to perform it, so if it were
available i would buy it.
similar to that japanese magician who did the manipulation act at FISM in
03, with the paint pallet and the lemon, and also the routine with the
marker and the notepad, which i didn't like as well, but that was a personal
take on the timing of his moves, but anyways, i would love to buy those and
focus on the performance instead of having to "be perfectly inventive"
Have a look at Jerry Andrus' Zone Zero. Give it some thought and
adapt it to some other item. I use it regularly for library shows
which promote book reading. I use a small figurine of a fairy tale
or an item being described in the book as the manipulation item. I
show the book both sides, produce the solid item and use it for
another effect.
Post by WhoDaGuy
Ed Marlo was probably the greatest card magician of all time, but to watch
him perform was like watching corn grow, sure there is a gust of wind
everyonce in a while, but other than that, pretty boring, and i would
consider him not a friend but a good acquaintance. one of his students is a
good friend, similar performance style.
Most audiences dislike more than one card trick. Anyone who thinks
they like to sit and watch a magician amuse himself for hours on end
is kidding themselves. Only drunks have that kind of attention span.
Post by WhoDaGuy
anyways, ranting off, if that is what i was doing.
That's what these newsgroups are for. We chit chat, make remarks,
have a few funny lines or two and go back to work.
Post by WhoDaGuy
and Ray I wish I had a flameproof suti i could lend you, i hear that
copperfield has one left over from some special.
Have you ever noticed that I never need a flame proof suit? This
recent crop are amateurs compared to some I've seen here. And see
who's still around? Good old Ray is. The rest of the morons have
left for easier targets than me.
--
Ray
Ian Wragg
2006-08-15 09:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by WhoDaGuy
<snip>
Have you ever noticed that I never need a flame proof suit? This
recent crop are amateurs compared to some I've seen here. And see
who's still around? Good old Ray is. The rest of the morons have
left for easier targets than me.
--
Ray
BAAAAAAA

Shit is that a Goat I hear???? Please god no ;-)

Ian
Ray Haddad
2006-08-15 10:43:50 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:15:17 GMT, I said, "Pick a card, any card"
Post by Ian Wragg
Post by Ray Haddad
Post by WhoDaGuy
<snip>
Have you ever noticed that I never need a flame proof suit? This
recent crop are amateurs compared to some I've seen here. And see
who's still around? Good old Ray is. The rest of the morons have
left for easier targets than me.
BAAAAAAA
Shit is that a Goat I hear???? Please god no ;-)
It was reported to me that when he visited New York and at least a
dozen people asked him about me, he sort of freaked. God bless his
wicked little soul.
--
Ray
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